New Design?

["Tom Brown" <tbrown@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Greg:

I too was high on the Ducati thing for a while.  I even bought stock in the
company (Let's not go there, OK?).

The '99 ST4 I had was faster than my RT, but it wasn't any more fun.   The
RT has better torque than the ST4 did.  It has better power where you can
use it on the street.  ST4 had great top speed and I did like that engine
even if it didn't have all the torque.  It also got great mileage because if
the desmo valves (no valve spring resistance).

The handling is nicer on the RT on the kind of roads I let myself push.   I
tried every suspension adjustment I could on the ST4.  It had fully
adjustable suspension front and rear and you could adjust the rear ride
height too.  I think the problem is the chassis on that bike.  It's just
boring.   Maybe it's the steering angle or CG or something.   Anyway, I just
couldn't make myself love it.  A lot of bystanders thought it was pretty,
though.  Nothing like Ferrari/Ducati red to get people's attention-
Magnifico!

My ST4 was a dealer rep's bike.  I got it for $12,000.  It had 5,000 miles
and had been dropped and had a little scratch on the left fairing when I
bought it.  I stuck a small "Agip" sticker over the scratch.  No sweat.

Other things I didn't like about Ducati were the complexity of adjusting
Desmo valves.  You need special shims and you need to almost completely
dismantle the bike to adjust the valves on ST4 and ST4S.  Major bills if you
don't do it yourself. If you do it yourself, the special shim sets will cost
you several hundred dollars.  I wouldn't do this job myself.   Also, the
clutch...while easy to change, is a rattley damned thing that got on my
nerves.   I know a lot of people are hooked on that sound...I'm not one.
My clutch "moaned" on partial engagement.  My brakes also moaned...same
sound, just from the wheels instead of the side of the engine case.   These
little annoyances can be overcome. New clutch and brake pads with different
linings would have fixed it I'm sure.  I could have invested in a new seat,
but the simple truth was that, for a fun ride, I had a chipped Mille R...400
lbs. and 130 HP and with a chassis and engine that are way more
entertaining.   For a long ride I had an RT.   If the ST had been more fun,
I'd have just kept all three.  It wasn't, so it went to a guy who owned 6
old Ducatis down in North Carolina.   I called him later to see how he was
doing with it and he loves the bike. Considers it his "reliable" bike and
rides it much more than any of his others.  We're both happier.

Things I liked about the ST4:  Looks, low fuel consumption, great motor
sounds - torque is better with FIM chip and Ferrachi CF cans, but LOUD, low
vibes, smooth, flawless F.I., great mirrors, great wind protection (mirrors
and/or fairing deflect wind away from your hands), good tire wear, Italian
style, fully adjustable suspension, decent pillion accommodations, nice
pannier cases, right angle tire valve in front - very handy.

The Ducati ST2/ST4 group has a great mail list.   If you buy an ST, you
should join.   Nice people.   The big Ducati list is full of posts with
horror stories about long waits for parts, failed engines, bad cam lobe
plating, bad frame welds, unscrupulous dealers and lack of warranty support
from the manufacturer.   This was another reason I decided to sell.  Never
had a problem myself and most of the problems were with other models..748
cams were trouble as I recall, but I didn't want to contemplate a long trip
with a bike like that, from a company like that, when I had a perfectly good
RT in the garage.

Your original post mentioned the ST4, not the ST4S, which is in another ball
park...Stronger engine, Ohlins suspension...Also costs a whole lot more.
Reviews on the ST4S say it's a revelation because of the extra torque and
the Ohlins suspension.   I'd love to try one of those.  Ducati is revising
their ST line this year with an ST3 (3-valve) and a new ST4.  Maybe those
will be better.  I think they look better.  Lots of debate about that
already.

Chains:  Yes, they're better. I've got 10K on my Mille and the dealer says
the chain and sprockets are still fine.   I know all about 0-rings, X-rings,
waxing chains etc.   Still don't want to have to do this on a long trip.
I'm spoiled, OK?

Long Trips:  I live near Chicago.  There aren't any good twisties for 200
miles.  If you get tired of those, you have to go considerably farther for
your fun.   Thanksgiving weekend, 8 of us went to N. Carolina on a 5 day
adventure.  It snowed. It got down in the 20's.  We rode 1/4 mile on glare
ice.  We did Deals Gap, lots of beautiful empty roads in NC,SC, N. Georgia
and TN.   We all made it home with smiles on our faces.   It was terrific.
Last year, We did NC, then Blue Ridge Parkway up to W.Virginia and ran all
over that state. Year before, we spent to full weeks in Colorado running
mountain passes and checking out the forest fires.  Year before that,
Oregon, Washington and back via Rt. 2 near the Canadian border.  This is the
kind of riding that's the most enjoyable for me, long stints out on the
road.  There's something about it that's really special to me.

Your comment that the dentist "shouldn't have dropped his bike"...well
DUHHH!   Sorry, but someone has to say this.  This sort of stuff and a lot
of other stuff happens over the course of a bike's life. I dropped my
Aprilia on a gravel stop...long story, but there was nothing that I could
have done about it. 3 MPH.  Had to stop right then.  Alternative would have
been worse.  I chose to buy a new side panel for the bike and a
mirror --cosmetic damage only.  The cost for these was about $350 but the
bike looks new again.  Parts took 10 days.  I know guys who've had dogs run
out in front of them causing damage to fairings and fenders and, obviously,
dogs.  One guy hit a deer. One guy hit a fallen rock in Colorado.  It was
dusk and he didn't see it going over an otherwise clean road on a mountain
pass...dented his front rim, lunched his front fender and lower fairing.
One guy just froze up one day and ran straight off a turn into a ditch.
He's been riding a many years and he just shouldn't have done this.  The
point is, when something happens, even though it shouldn't, where are you
when repairs are needed?  This should be a strong consideration with any
bike that you're going to put many miles on.  When a friend of mine bashed
up his '96 RT, he bought the totaled wreck from the insurance co. and then
bought an '00 wreck from a guy in Texas and had it shipped to my garage.  We
were able to build a new bike by putting the undamaged pieces from his '96
onto the '00 wreck.  This bike looked and worked extremely well.  He had to
finish breaking in the motor!!!

BMWs are nice to work on.   I think Ducatis are OK to work on too, much
better than any bike from Japan, but BMW bikes are really well made...every
piece.  Sometimes the design of some of their sub systems are a little
screwy.  The R-bike's throttle cable control box comes to mind, but it's
always a joy pulling stuff apart and feeling the workmanship of every piece.
There's a certain logic and consistency to BMW machines, cars or bikes, that
I like.

If you want a Ducati, buy one.  You don't need to ask a BMW list if it's OK.
It is.   If you want to convince this list that they should all sell their
BMWs and buy Ducatis because Ducatis have more horsepower and weigh less,
well to that I say, "How come you're not buying a Suzuki instead?".  Even
less weight.  Even more HP for even less money.   Most of us know why we
like BMWs.  They're not perfect either, which is why we have this list, but
they have qualities that others, including Ducatis, do not have.   Heck,
you'd have a hard time convincing me to even buy a K-bike.   I know almost
nothing goes wrong with a K-RS and they're smooth and faster than snot, but
they handle strangely to me and they make my knees sore.  And about that
power thing...RT's have 90 HP, but they have torque everywhere and power
everywhere. They also have major engine braking that can be used very
effectively for getting through unfamiliar corners...(the best kind). You
can really use the power below about 100 mph.   Above that, thanks, I'll
just be the one back here who's not going to jail.

My '00 RSV-R is WAY more fun than either my RT or my old ST4 and maintenance
costs are much lower than either bike.  The Mille R has almost no storage,
however...just a tank bag and a little room under the rear hump. I'll
probably buy a tail pack for it this year.  I bought a pillion seat for it
although I can't put a pillion on...no foot pegs and the aluminum subframe
won't support the weight of a person.  I just got it so I could attach a
pack to it.   It's not a touring bike, but I've survived several fun weekend
overnights on the thing.   The riding position is much better than a 996.

The 2003 RSV-R, however, is a more focused track bike. I was liking the new
style and thought about maybe treating myself to one until I got on the
thing.  Mirrors are absolutely useless on this thing..actually worse than a
996.  The riding position is a bit less comfy as well.   I don't need to go
faster.  I need to go better.  Just where am I gonna use the extra power and
handling of the new Mille if I can't see anything but my arms and shoulders
out the mirrors?

You might want to look at a Falco.  They are great bikes that haven't caught
on.  You can buy a very nice one for a whole lot less than an ST4S and add
some bags.  I tried a Futura but couldn't get with that program.   Another
boring chassis and that styling is just too Edsel for me.

The Mille is a full sport bike with the advantage of having the pegs farther
forward, which allows you to take the weight off your arms.   This makes a
huge difference for me.  It's not a touring bike, but neither is the ST4, in
my estimation.  The ST4 isn't a bad bike, it is just a bike that does
nothing I need well enough to justify keeping one.  The 996 is just a
torture rack for anything besides track use.   The 999 seems a little
better, but I think I'd get an Aprilia for that. More performance for the
money and less cost.   Aprilias seem very mass produced, but with very sharp
engineers.   I don't mind that.  I think the philosophy behind some of their
bikes is a little narrow, like the designers have never been out of Italy,
but I like owning the things better than owning Ducatis.   Just my opinion.
I could be wrong.

- -TB




>> As someone who's owned an ST4, I can tell you that I just wasn't
impressed.

>the difference between the 916 engine and the 996 engine is, lets say, eye
poppin.  this level of performance is not obtainable from a bmw r1100rt no
matter how you set it up.  thats 115hp vs 90, and about 100# less in heft.
not to mention fully adjustable suspension out of the box.  chain drive is
not a problem.  these are not the chains of old, they are sealed and require
some minimal cleaning and applicaiton of a chain wax from time to time.
this red herring makes me chuckle each and every time it comes up.  how many
of you do your rear spline lubing?  how many shafties failed during the last
IB?  come on, all machines have their ups and downs just be happy with what
you have.

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