New RT (Vs ST1300?)

["Tom Brown" <tbrown@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Steve:

>> The Honda ST1300 makes three mistakes.   1.  It weighs 750 pounds...nearly
>> as much as the Gold Wing.

>Re #1: According to Honda
(http://www.honda.ca/MotorcycleEng/CurrentModels/Touring/ST1300A5.htm?page=t
echspecs), the dry weight is ~650 lbs. Add ~7.5 US gallons of fuel @6
lbs/gal, and another ~20 lbs for oil, hydraulics, and rad juice, and you end
up somewhere around 715 lbs. Honda claims a dry weight of ~800 lbs for the
Wing. The ST1300 is actually closer to the weight of a R1150RT, which BMW
claims has a wet weight of 615 lbs, than it is to a Gold Wing. But granted,
the 100+ lbs difference on a ST1300 is a weight disadvantage.

If you say it weighs 715#, I believe you.  I remember it topping that 700
pound barrier and I've heard from many that it feels heavy and handles heavy,
not compared to the old ST, but compared to an oilhead.   I think it must have
a lot more weight up high and also has different geometry.   If all I did was
ride interstates or flat two-lanes, I'd vot for this bike without
reservation...BUT...The reason I ride long distance IS TO GET TO THE GREAT
ROADS AND FLOG MY BIKE MERCILESSLY ON THEM.   I live for that stuff.   I need
a bike that will get me there AND THEN REWARD ME for my trouble.  The Honda
needs a lot of tweaking to get near that point.   It's a better tourer and a
more reliable, smoother bike, but it's not as much fun.

>>2. Too many phony "layers" created by this
>> flat-grey stuff on the bodywork.  3. Linked brakes, although they work
>> pretty well on a heavy bike like this one.

>Re #2: Having seen photos of the ST1300, and seeing it in person, I must
disagree with your "too many phony layers" statement. It simply looks like a
2-tone paint job where the second color is used as a tasteful accent.

Well, symantics...I'm saying that a bike should look good in a single color.
If it passes that test, it's a pretty bike.  Otherwise, it's an ugly bike with
a pretty paint job.

>Personally, I prefer solid colors, like you do, but I did not find the
1300's paint scheme to me a detriment. The thing that caught me was the
ST1300's form: The bike's style, although it had definite Asian styling
cues, looks extremely attractive to my eye (a wholly subjective assessment).

Well, it's kinda like I said.  These sort of discussions are like talking
tires.   I like it better than the Wing, that's for sure.   The back of the
Wing looks like two Honda Accords stacked on top of each other waiting for the
crusher.





>Re #3: We must remember that the R1150RT and R1200RT, like the ST1300, also
has semi-linked brakes. Add Honda's ABS (ST1300A), and according to
reviewers, you have a winning combination.

The ST has fully linked brakes as does the 1150RT.  The pedal always works the
front brake too.   As I said, this doesn't matter much on the R1150 RT.  It
has a good system that I adapted to fairly easily.  Then I made a simple mod
to further improve it.  I hated the servo brake system on the 1150RT until I
got used to it.  It also got better, I think...less grabby after several
thousand miles.   I absolutely love it now, especially in a hard braking
situation.   I've never, ever had to use more than 2 finger on the lever and
I've really had to do some hard stops.  It's very reassuring to know that you
can get full braking from two fingers.   It quickens your reaction time as
well.   The brake systems are quite different on the two bikes.   The RT has
auto proportioning based on ABS talking to the servo system.  Either the pedal
or lever operate both brakes depending on which wheel has the best chance of
stopping the bike.  The 1300 has a design that puts a high percentage of
braking on the front wheel and a low percentage on the rear when you pull the
lever.  The opposite happens when you push the pedal.   Lots of plumbing
involved in that system.  RT brake service is nearly impossible for an owner
to do himself, but I can do valve adjustments, oil changes and throttle synchs
myself.  I take my bike in once a year to have the brakes looked over.

My experience with ST1300s is 1. I've seen them and sat on them in the store.
2. I've seen a very nicely tweaked one at Deal's Gap that actually looked
pretty cool.   3. I've talked with an older guy who bought one and wore street
clothes riding it and didn't have the sense to wear a helmet.  I doubt that he
even had a motorcycle license.   4.  I talked with the owner of the Deal's Gap
modded bike and he thinks it's great. He's put a lot of money in his and he's
selling products for the bike, so he should be enthusiastic.   5. I've talked
to numerous riders at BMW rallies who were crazy for the bike until the rode
one.  They are the ones who told me it was really heavy.   I think that's more
of a perception than reality but perception is what you live with on a bike.
Some even said the Gold Wing felt better to them.

[...]

>My comparison of the ST1300 to the R1200RT is one that has been made before.
It's a matter of trade offs:
 o Do I get a more attractive '04 R1150RT (I definitely dislike the new
R1200RT styling),
    or settle for a slightly less attractive (IMHO) ST1300?

Well, if that's the way you feel,  The 1150s are going to be a bargain soon.
You can buy mine for $12K with all the goodies.  It's that deep blue and comes
with Olins AND brand new stock shocks...which are much better than the 1100
stock shocks. Two Cee Bailey's windshields...a large one and a large wide one
for cold weather.  A Sargent F&R seat, a top trunk with passenger rest, a Big
Mak tank bag, Bar Baks, a parcel shelf, an amazing radar detection system
built in...Includes V-1 with remotes mounted under the parcel shelf and a
H.A.R.D. system that goes in your helmet.  Pretty good Road Tec Z6's...the
ONLY tire for this bike.   Said rear brake tweak.  New plugs and a perfect
valve adjustment and throttle body synch, clean BMW synthetic before you come
pick it up.   Record of all maintenance done on the bike and you get to see my
spectacular garage, where the bike has been stored in climate controlled
splendor for 1.5 years when not in use.

 o Do I have to take ugly styling to get less weight (R1200RT vs ST1300)?
This used to be
    the Asian vs BMW argument with the R11xxRT on top.

Well, it's more than a weight thing if you care about the curves.   Telelever
is a real friend in hard corners on unknown roads.   The placement of weight
and the dynamics of either RT is better than the ST.   Believe me, I wanted to
defect, but neither the ST or the YJ had the right stuff for me.

> o Am I willing to accept another 100 lbs to get a more powerful and much
    smoother engine (balanced V4 on the ST1300 vs unbalanced boxer on
R1150RT vs
    primary-balanced boxer on R1200RT).

If it's smooth you want, buy a K bike.   Same problem, they don't handle as
well.

>Factor in the price difference, and to me, the ST1300 looks like a very
attractive distance bike.

It is, and if you're looking for distance, straight line speed and comfort,
look no further than the ST.   It's terrific.

>If *I* was forced to decided between an R1150RT,
R1200RT, and ST1300, all things considered, I'd take the ST1300 for its
style and engine, begrudgingly sacrifice the R1150RT's style and suspension
and lower weight, and snub the "kit bike" R1200RT (which likely rides like a
charm).

Well, when you buy my 1150, I'm going out an puttin an order in for a kit
bike.  I'm completely smitten with the hex hed riding dynamics.  I'll get used
to the looks, it has what I need in the way of weather protection and it has
that hex hed lighning.

While I'm waiting, I ride my Aprillia Mille R.   It's a sacrifice, but there
you go.

- -TB

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