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Re: Autolite 3923 washer

In a message dated 11/10/05 11:46:21 PM Eastern  Standard Time, 
BeemerGary2@xxxxxxx writes:
<<Tom, Tom, Tom,

You  are answering questions like a politician. You are totally avoiding  one 
of the questions and attempting to redirect the focus on the  other.>>

OK, I'll take them in your  order...

<<Permit me to refresh your memory:
My first  question in response to your statement: "DO NOT apply Anti-Seize to 
spark  plug threads. You will end up overtorquing the plug and stripping out 
the  thread in the head" was:
1) <<If one uses a Torque Wrench and tightens  the plug to the recommended 
torque setting (10 Nm for instance), how can the  threads be stripped, 
of whether or not an anti-seize compound is  used?>>

A torque wrench measures turning force,  not clamping force. We just went 
through this on the AirList a few weeks ago, so  excuse me if I am a little 
impatient with it. Changing the sliding resistance of  a thread by adding 
lubrication changes the clamping force obtained with the same  turning force. 
Therefore, if you lubricate a thread, you MUST adjust your torque  wrench setting 
accordingly. Engineering manuals seem to waver on the exact  amount, somewhere 
between 25 and 30%. Therefore, if you lubricate the thread  with Anti-Seize, then 
use your torque wrench to turn the spark plug to the same  WRENCH SETTING that 
is recommended for non-lubricated threads, you will end up  putting about 
25-30% more force on the threads. In an aluminum cylinder head,  the threads will 
start to distort or "pull" at that level, and they will fail at  about 40% 
overtorque. I am not an engineer, but I know this is true, because I  have to 
repair stripped, anti-seize-coated spark plug threads quite frequently.  

To recap, since you seeem to miss stuff when I state  it subtly: If you 
lubricate the thread, you must REDUCE your torque wrench  setting by about 25-30%. 

Now comes the hard part.  Anti-Seize gets forced into the aluminum threads 
and is almost impossible to  remove. So even if you decide to day to stop 
putting Anti-Seize on the threads  in your bike, where you previously used it, it 
will remain there for years. That  means that you must rigidly control ALL other 
persons who have reason to service  the spark plugs of that motorcycle 
forever. That just doesn't happen. And that  is when I see the problem. Some guy 
buys a used bike and decides he will screw  with the spark plugs, because he 
thinks he know something about them. So he  takes out the plugs and does whatever 
he wants, and goes to put them back in,  torquing them to the torque 
recommended in the bootlegged Service Manual CD that  he bought on Ebay. The threads 
begin to fail, because he doesn't know that he is  dealing with 
previously-lubricated threads. This is a VERY common issue with  BMWs. 

BMW owners think they know everything, because  they read it in books of 
questionable value. Haynes and Clymers manuals are  notorious for misinformation, 
and the anti-seize recommendation that they make  is but one of many 
potentially damaging recommendations that they make. They  have writers who sprinkle 
"common knowledge" aphorisms like "put a dab of  anti-seize on the threads" 
throughout their publications. 

<<I  really expected to see your answer to that question, which you avoided  
completely, before you responded with demonstrated obfuscation to the  
question I 
posed to your statement: "Many spark plug makers specifically say  not to use 
Anti-Seize", which was:
2) <<Specifically, who might  that be, and by what means is this information 
transmitted from these  manufacturers to the end users?>>

As recently as  three years ago, Bosch, NGK and Champion all specifically 
stated in their  websites to NOT use anti-Seize on spark plugs. For some reason 
that I cannot  begin to guess, they have removed those recommendations. So that 
is the who and  how. 

<<Providing me with your "Elephant Dung" analogy was really a  crappy 
and one that dodges the answers to my specific  questions.>>

Not really. It made the point,  which you clearly missed. But your response 
above WAS  funny.

<<Directing me to "Search their websites for Installation  Tips" is telling 
that I should go to the effort of proving that what you  say is correct or 
incorrect when I am questioning the authority with which  you have made some 
questionable (to me) statements. That is akin to a  journalist making a 
statement and 
expecting the reader/listener/viewer prove  or disprove the validity of the 
journalist's statement, when the principle  of journalistic integrity places 
burden of proof on the  journalist.>>

You are right, Gary. I should  provide a complete set of footnotes to every 
post that I make on this and every  list to which I post. You should be saved 
the trouble of looking for information  that I should have provided for your 
amusement and convenience. After all, I  have nothing better to do with my time. 
You asked who and where, I told you "the  spark plug manufacturers" and 
"Their websites and the Installation Tips." Sorry  for being so obtuse. I really 
have no right to expect you to look up the answers  you demand. 

<<You have stated that you "started to do a  search" but ran into websites 
AutoLite and Champion that were the same.  Okay, I looked at those websites, 
and ya-sure-ya-bet'cha, they were the  same. SO WHAT? They did no more to 
the questions I have asked than  you have done?>>

That was an "aside", i.e. an  interesting tidbit that I encountered while 
searching for some other stuff. It  was not intended to bolster my argument in 
any way. It was just an interesting  observation. 

<<You then directed me, as well as all other readers  of this thread, to a 
Saturn Service Campaign which reputedly stated: "If  anti-sieze compound is 
used and 
spark plugs are over-torqued, damaged to the  cylinder head threads may 
result."  DUH, YEAH! If ANY thread is over  torqued by some ham fisted shade 
mechanic who doesn't know a torque  specification for an octane rating, it's 
than likely to get stripped.  What does this have to do with whether or not 
anti-seize compound is applied  to the threads when the manufacturer's 
torque value is followed  by someone using a torque wrench?(Refer to question 
#1). And it still does  not answer question #2 regarding the alleged 
recommendation of spark plug  manufacturers. >>

Again, you missed the point  that both I AND Saturn make. When you lubricate 
a thread, the torque CHANGES.  Then threads will fail. This was not a warning 
for the ham-fisted. it was a  warning for the very careful guy who always sets 
his torque wrench to the  factory spec and then decides, ON HIS OWN 
INITIATIVE, to smear some goop on to  the threads, despite NO suggestion by the vehicle 
or spark plug maker to do so.  Then he cranks the plug in there, believing, 
as you clearly do, that he is doing  things perfectly, not realizing that he 
just caused damage.  

<<Please Tom, rather than dance around the questions I have asked  in 
to statements you have made, just answer them directly. In the  past, I have 
really enjoyed your input to this List and have accepted your  statements as 
credible. I expect that I am not the only reader of this  List who feels the 
same way. >>

Gary, the  problem with this issue is that you are so dead-set convinced that 
you are right  in using Anti-Seize on your plugs, you just cannot accept that 
it may be the  wrong thing to do. It's OK, it is your bike, and they are your 
spark plugs. I'll  keep a supply of Heli-Coil inserts handy when you are 
ready for  them.

<<Please don't burst my bubble, and  possibly that of others, by 
continuing to answer these rather simple and  straightforward questions as 
though you 
were running for office.  >>

I answered the question in the first post.  You just chose to not see it 
because you are blinded by your preconception.  

<<Of course, you could ignore this matter  entirely, leaving me and possibly 
others to our own  conclusions.>>

Here's a conclusion you can draw,  Gary. There are damn few experienced BMW 
motorcycle mechanics willing to share  their accumulated experience with the 
public, freely and with no expectation of  return or compensation. The main 
reason is that blowhards and blusterers tend to  attack them and drive them away. 
You, and "possibly others" can conclude that  for sure.

Tom Cutter
Yardley,  PA